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While I'm in a posting mood...

I need an explanation for the Season 4 premiere, because I am missing something.

When Dean and Bobby go to find Sam in that motel in Pontiac, Ruby is there. She's introduced as "Cathy" or "Chrissy," or whatever, but it's definitely Ruby.

She then completely fails to recognize Dean, back from hell, along with Bobby (whom she's met at least once, in "Sin City"). Or at least pretends to.

Sam then apparently lies through his teeth to Dean about the girl. This after the massive, massive shock of getting his brother back from Hell. He later lies through his teeth some more when he says Ruby's dead.

So. Is that a continuity error? Did Ruby somehow manage to convey to Sam that she didn't want him to reveal her identity to Dean?

It's driving me nuts.

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When she says, "So...are you two...together?" I think that's the signal. If you watch Sam's reaction right there, I thought at first he had just forgotten she was in the room. But on re-watching once I knew she was Ruby, I think it's him processing, "Oh, hey, yeah, we probably shouldn't tell him this is Ruby."

Ooh, good point. That line *is* kind of odd, in context.

Hmmm... that's a really good question!
Maybe Sam hides Ruby's identity to Dean because he doesn't want Dean to worry even more about him? Guess Sam knows Dean well enough to know that he doesn't approve of Sam being with her / trusting her?
Hm, anyway, it's weird... :/

What she said. *points* I think Sam lied through his teeth the second he got out of Dean's arms because he just knew that there was no way that Dean was going to take the 'oh, hey, been screwing a demon and sucking back demon blood while you were gone' thing well.

*pokes* You're rewatching, aren't you?

The hiding part I get. It's just that in theory neither Ruby nor Sam are expecting Dean back. I'm really surprised they both had the presence of mind to lie right on the spot.

Yes, yes I am rewatching. What tipped you off? ;)

I was just as surprised as you are ;D
Though... Ruby and Sam already started lying to Dean during Season 3, it's almost as if they fall back into habit...
Sorry, for my bad english, it's 2am in Germany and I'm extremly tired XD

I think it's because Ruby has no emotional connection with Dean. Her first though is, If he finds out, it will ruin EVERYTHING, not to mention he will kill me. And she has time through that whole little fight scene and the brother-hugging to come up with something to say.

As for Sam, he's thinking like a guilty person, because we know he's consumed with guilt even as he chooses to suck down the demon blood. He CANNOT let Dean find out about that, since, as he says, it was practically Dean's dying wish that he not use his demon powers. So Ruby's little hint about them being a couple, when she KNOWS they aren't, is enough to remind Sam he needs to lie, and it gives him an easy out to get rid of her while he decides what to do.

True. Everyone starts lying to everyone toward the end of Season 3, and they sort of pick up where they left off.

No worries about your English, it's waaaay better than my German. :)

I think you're onto something. That supposed question about them being together is very likely a signal to "STFU, Sam!"

I'm pretty sure that Sam knew damn well that he shouldn't be letting Dean in on Ruby's identity, no matter what she might have conveyed to him. And Ruby knew damned well who Dean was she's just a demon that's good at covering. Yes, he lied through his teeth to his just back from the torments of hell brother. The brother whose dying wish was that Sam keep fighting and NOT keep using his freaky, demon given powers. And letting Dean know that Ruby was alive would have opened up a whole can of worms that Sam just wanted to keep, um in an unopened can. It was the start of the season long impulse for me to smack Sam in the back of the head.

My innate grasp of the blatantly obvious is practically a super power. *nods* It's true.

Sam spent all of Season 4 breaking my heart. Over and over. Not the same way as Dean. There was a LOT of screaming at the TV set whenever he persisted in going down that very, very dark path. Screaming, I tell you. My cats think I'm nuts. ;)

You and Sam could form a Captain Obvious Club! :D

That scene actually really bothers me. It probably bothers me more than any of Season 4 Sam's actions/decisions because the fact that he can cover up so quickly after Dean is back, just strikes me as wrong.

But because I adore Sam so much, I attribute it to improbable and clunky writing more than anything else. I can forgive a lot because of that post-Hell hug.

I thought the scene was rather clever actually. If you watch carefully, Ruby is in charge of the entire incident. First, she opens the door, looks both at Dean and at Bobby before saying, "Where's the pizza?" She recognized them alright, and thought fast. Then, after Sam and Dean embrace, she says something like, "So, you guys are together." Sam looks at her with some confusion before saying, "Uh...no..." He makes up a name for her, then she corrects him. It makes her look like just a one night stand. All Sam has to do is kind of blunder along after her statements and comments. Of COURSE he doesn't want to tell Dean that he's with Ruby.

He directly lies to Dean's face later in the car. They played Sam very subtly all through the first half of season 4. We're not supposed to realize how messed up Sam really is. Notice the entire first half of the season has almost nothing for Sam to do- it's all about Dean coming back from hell and angels and the apocalypse. That changes fast the second half of the season.

I don't know if it was the best way for them to do it, but we were ALL surprised to find out Sam was addicted to demon blood when it was finally revealed. Mission accomplished.

The hug certainly makes me inclined to forgive a lot about Season 4, yes. ;)

the fact that he can cover up so quickly after Dean is back, just strikes me as wrong.

Exactly! Where is the wears-his-emotions-on-his-sleeve Sam from the end of Season 3? I'm willing to buy that he disappears over the course of Season 4, but that initial scene strikes me as being crappily written.

we were ALL surprised to find out Sam was addicted to demon blood when it was finally revealed. Mission accomplished.

True. I'm just... having trouble buying that Sam, after the initial shock of seeing Dean, was so quickly able to follow Ruby's lead. Obviously those four months changed him more than I thought they did. :)

I'm just... having trouble buying that Sam, after the initial shock of seeing Dean, was so quickly able to follow Ruby's lead.

That's my issue too. Seconds before, he was just destroyed over seeing Dean. I don't think even messed-up Sam could change gears so quickly.

See, I think it's a sign of how guilty he really felt about not adhering to Dean's dying wish. Dean's back he's like "Holy shit, holy shit.....ohSHIT." Like all of a sudden he knows he's going to have to answer for not keeping his promise.

Which was made worse because he knows Dean went to hell for him and he fucked up anyways.

Terrifying levels of guilt are plenty enough to make one not want to tell the truth, Ruby just gave him an easy explanation.

Just my thoughts on the subject! I could be totally off base. Man that episode makes me CRY for those boys. ;_;

Hm...okay, I buy it.
That scene was bothering me as well (I hate continuity errors), so thanks for giving me reasonable explanation.

True. I'm just... having trouble buying that Sam, after the initial shock of seeing Dean, was so quickly able to follow Ruby's lead. Obviously those four months changed him more than I thought they did. :)

The four months changed him almost completely. The "kill me before I go evil" Sam is pretty much gone. He may have tried to justify his demon-blood-drinking by saying he was able to do more good and that he just wanted revenge on Lilith, but both Chuck and Dean called him on that at various times. Demon-blood-drinking, Ruby-sexing Sam is years and miles away from Dean's Sammy.

We've seen before that without Dean Sam loses his moral compass and turns into uber-John, and with the added help of Ruby that's what he'd done in those four months. Ruby gives him the clues and he follows because he's managed to turn himself into Super-Hunter and that's what Super-Hunter does.

More than anything I wish Sam hadn't been able to follow Ruby's lead so quickly , because it would have been a sign that our Sammy was still in control. But like any junkie Sam had to hit absolute rock-bottom before Sammy could start coming back. (Admittedly, most junkies' rock bottom isn't helping to bring about the Apocalypse.)

The Winchesters never do anything by halves, do they?

No, they're intense little puppies. John's DNA? Or does it go back to the Campbells?

Little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B, I suspect. Stubborn going back both ways for generations.

I felt the same way, the whole thing was just...odd. But then I read a really awesome fic from Ruby's POV (I think) and suddenly it seemed brilliant.

Sam didn't have to do much lying, and the bit he did seemed very off. So I interpreted it as, Ruby was covering for him, and he was so distracted by everything his brain kind of exploded and he just kind of went along with it while his brain was rebooting.

Because really, he was lying very poorly. He only got away with it because of all the other drama.

I totally agree! It's the guilt. Guilt makes quick-thinking liars out of anyone, and remember Sam spent YEARS at Stanford lying to cover up his lifestyle. He'd have to be able to think (and lie) quick on his feet, and he's got great motivation here, with not only Dean there but Bobby, too. He's been a con-man his whole life; he can lie under duress, no problem.

It was the first moment when I started feeling disconnected from the show, not recognizing the characters anymore. "No, Sam or Dean wouldn`t do that!" First of many, heh.

Oh well, the true tragedy would be if they went from gorgeous to fugly Lindsay Lohan style. Going from caring about each other a lot to not as much - I can grudgingly accept that./shallow

As for your question, they wanted to conceal Ruby`s shenanigans from us so Dean had to remain ignorant because the show is from his point of view. I see it as a "storytelling trumps characterization" writing choice.

Could be. Other people have come up with some pretty interesting explanations for Sam's personality change too.

Yes, I loved reading other replies! It`s interesting to see what other people make out of that icky ambiguous "Ruby in panties" scene.

Seriously!

I am not a Ruby-hater, by any stretch of the imagination. I never liked the character, but that was because of the actual characterization: I figured she was up to no good. I loved to hate her, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, I was re-watching, and it occurred to me that I'd never come up with a satisfactory explanation for that particular scene. So I threw it out to the internet at large and got a pretty cool response.

Hee, "Ruby-hater". This juvenile word looks strange on your journal. I always put on my white gloves when I type a comment here. Well, not really, but I do check my spelling before hitting post. I mean, I like your approach to discussing the show, it`s level-headed and you attract the same kind of people.

*dies laughing*

Wow. Do I come off like that? That's priceless. I'm a kid at heart. In my non-fanfic LJ I totally indulge in speaking like a LOLcat. ;)

I will confess to being more than a little OCD about spelling and grammar.

As for the Show, I have very little tolerance for internet wank and drama, and generally I seek out people who are the same: interested in level-headed discussion.

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