Big Bangs: someone explain the controversy, please?

[ratherastory]

Okay.

Some of you may have heard about the latest... *looks for a polite word* disturbance in fandom, which on the surface was a discussion about the creation of a Gen Big Bang, which would focus entirely on gen fics. Not as an alternative to the current Big Bang, but simply as an extra one, if you will.

WAIT! Before you go on to tell me everything that was wrong with the OP's post, you can stop right there. I know what was wrong with it, I agree, and that's NOT what this post is about at all. It's tangentially related, at best.

I saw this last year when the deancasbigbang was created too, and it caught me entirely by surprise.

Why are people viewing the creation of separate, smaller, more specific Big Bangs as an either/or proposition?

No, seriously, I don't understand. It's not like having an extra BB suddenly prevents the other one from existing, or prevents people from participating in it, right? There are lots of people who can't participate in the main BB (the spn_j2_bigbang) for myriad reasons. (Timing is a big one, especially for people in school, since it coincides with exams and papers and such. Having another large-ish challenge later in the year is a great way for those people to write their long fics and get art for them, if they want it.)

For others, there's no reason they can't do both. I got all excited about it last year, and participated in both, and wrote genfic for both (shocking, I know). I didn't feel like the DCBB people were in any way forcing me out of their sandbox if I didn't have a longish Dean & Cas story to tell (I did, as it happened, but if I didn't I simply wouldn't have signed up). In fact, I was pretty excited about the Big Bangs that proliferated last year -though I will admit that, being newish to fandom last year, I wasn't aware that this wasn't standard practice- because there are few things as thrilling for an author as to get art done for their fic.

So I'm confused about the whole argument about segregating the fandom, or that if there's a separate Gen Big Bang no one outside of gen readers will go read the stories. I mean, aren't people going to cross-post on communities? Maybe not everyone, but those interested in sharing will do it, right? If people have a long, plotty fic, slash or otherwise, that doesn't fit in with, say, the Dean/Cas Big Bang, then they can still write it during that time, can't they? And post it anyway? And maybe, if they're less self-conscious about it than I am, they could ask if someone out there would be willing to do art for them. Maybe. I know I get all twisted in knots about that sort of thing, so I'd understand if it's the same for others. :P

There are other arguments against multiple Big Bangs that make more sense to me. Like, because of the huge amount of work that an author puts into their fic, and because they have to respect their posting date, they often end up producing less fic during the Big Bang season. Same with exchanges and challenges. So that feels like a more valid argument to me: that people are leaving aside ideas because they're too stressed about ongoing "big" projects which have looming deadlines.

What I don't get, like I said, is the notion that somehow this is some sort of twisted, underhanded ploy to divide fandom.

So can someone explain this?


:::ETA:::
...

It occurs to me that this might possibly attract attention. So. As usual, the rules of healthy debate apply here. Please avoid flaming, ad hominem attacks, and the like. Feel free to comment anonymously, but I will screen/delete anonymous replies that are deliberately wanky. JSYK.

Comments

[jesseofthenorth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I got nuthin'.
I'm looking forward to a gen big bang and as far as I'm concerned the axiom "More Is Better" definitely applies to this one.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

I was looking forward to it too, but I'm worried that the rest of that post is going to bury it in wank, now. :(

[embroiderama]

Regarding the recent discussion of the possible gen bigbang, the only reason I saw it being an issue of one versus the other was because I thought the post framed it that way.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the framing was really unfortunate, but a few others also mentioned it in different venues and reminded me that the same thing was said of the DCBB last year.

dante_s_hell was very specific about it NOT being an either/or thing, though, so it all made me wonder.

[lunasky3.livejournal.com]

I somehow never run into OR understand ANY fandom drama. Don't know if I'm lucky or naive.

Fandom should never be opposed to other people "doing their own thing" because it's such a "do your own thing" concept in the first place. Wank is never good unless it's the British definition. Hate is never good unless it leads to sexy hate sex. Orgies all around!

*sings kumbaya with 5.04 Cas*

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

LOL

[yggdrasilian.livejournal.com]

Haha, I'm with you; I somehow seem to miss everything. :O
I hate wank, so I think I'll consider myself lucky. ;)

[elizah-jane.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is the underlying implication that the spn_j2_bigbang isn't inclusive enough. (The exception to this would be the rpf bigbang b/c at least as of last year, one of the J's had to be part of the main pairing/story).

The other part I think is like, hmmm. Take the delicious thing for example. Delicious is pretty much the default bookmarking site for fandom, right? And then there was news that it was shutting down and people were looking for replacements. There ended up being four or five different sites different people were using. With things spread out like that, it's harder to find what you're looking for, or stumble on something you weren't looking for, but ended up really liking.

I think rather than attracting more readers, having so many different bbs means people are less likely to give something a chance. It makes it easier to ignore as a whole. Some people like that, some people don't, but I think in terms of readership, the main bb is still your (general you) best shot.

It's all a ymmv thing, but as far as I see it, those are the main points of contention.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Okay, that sort of makes sense. I don't know where people are getting the idea the spn_j2_bigbang isn't inclusive (except maybe for that one rule about one of the Js having to be the focus of a RPF story/pairing, which rules out rarer pairings like, I dunno, Misha/Richard or something... and I just realized you said that in your comment and thus I fail at reading comprehension). I certainly never felt like I couldn't write a gen fic or a femmeslash or whatever, even if most people appeared to be writing RPF or wincest.

The delicious thing is a good example, so thank you! I didn't realize things got so spread out, but maybe that's because I watch way too many comms for my own good. ;)

I don't know. There's so much fic in this fandom that even if I spent all my time reading I'd never get through it all. I just look for summaries that pique my interest, and assumed other people did that too.

[debbiel66.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can think of is that for most people, writing a BB would be a once-a-year only undertaking. (For me, that is!) So I would have to choose if I was going to do a single BB.

For you, on the other hand... ;)

*envies your productivity*

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Heh.

Well, I was thinking it might be a question of timing, you know? The regular BB takes place in the first half of the year, so a BB set later on would give other people a chance to write a longfic if they didn't have time between January and May, or whatever.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Well, I was among those who had problems with that particular post, but no problem with the general idea of a Gen BB. I do like having one major challenge that produces several of the kinds of fic I like, so I wouldn't like to see the main BB become less popular as authors who have limited time for large projects decided to do other challenges, but I can think of several ways of having the multiplication of challenges work that wouldn't have that result. Shorter lengths, for one. I think lots of people who are working their way up to long fic would like to have 10K to 15K or 15K to 20K sized challenges. And trying to stagger the posting time would be good, so that the challenges aren't all happening at once.

But, yeah, I don't really go for the splintering arguments. I think of it as being like academic conferences. There's usually one or two big conferences per field, but that doesn't stop there being a ton of others on narrower topics or regional associations or whatever.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I'm all on board with the notion of a Gen BB, and the rest of the content of that post is, at this point, not something I'm willing to put/discuss in this LJ.

I took part, peripherally anyway, in RaceFail '09 with my regular LJ, and learned a hell of a lot, and have no desire to re-create that in my fandom LJ. This is all fandom, all the time in here, after all. ;) It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't feel this is the venue for it.

I think of it as being like academic conferences. There's usually one or two big conferences per field, but that doesn't stop there being a ton of others on narrower topics or regional associations or whatever.

That's a great analogy! *files it for future reference*

[icelily01.livejournal.com]

I have no idea where this all went down or what the original post actually said. So I can't comment on that.

I can see it being a problem in that for some people the idea of ONE big bang is like OMG HOW WILL I EVER PULL THIS OFF (see: me). Where as for others, it's like Hell, what's another 20k? (see: you :P). So in that way, maybe a little problem as far as division from the original.

But if it's about story content alone, not a big deal. Everyone should have a place to go where they feel like what they specifically want to write will be appreciated/accepted.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

LOL

Yeah, I can see how that would be an issue. I like the idea of challenges being staggered a bit, so people who are crazy-busy now can still do a big project like that later on down the road.

[faunaana.livejournal.com]

Where would would reverse_bb fit into this? I mean, if we're talking about a staggered year of bbs, how would that work? spnj2bb, dcbb, reversebb, a gen bb - that's..........a lot, especially for readers. This seems framed from a writer POV, but as an avid reader, I would just be EXHAUSTED from reading hundreds and hundreds of 20K+ fics, on top of summergen and spnj2xmas, and other fests, on top of episode tags, on top of comment fics, on top of regular writing that occurs every week.

WHEW, that's overload. Which is an embarrassment of riches, to be sure. It's just, WHOA, reader exhaustion could set in very quickly. There's no way I could keep up with that. So for me, I advocate keeping it as one entity simply so that I can pace myself. Otherwise, I might find myself just giving up on one fest since another one is starting - which would lead me to maybe missing lots of good fic at the end of the fest - or not having the energy to deal with a new one because I'm worn out from a previous one, or saving myself for one yet to come.

Anyway, my thoughts from a reader perspective :) (btw, I've moved on from coffee to ginger ale, way more soothing ;) )

[yggdrasilian.livejournal.com]

I agree! I STILL haven't read all of the Big Bang fics from last year (nor from the previous years), let alone all of the Christmas fics...and the regular fics...and the... X(
I LOVE having so much awesome fic to choose from, but at the same time it's a little frustrating that I can't keep up, lol. ^^;

[faithburke.livejournal.com]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but I'm sufficiently unplugged from general fandom doings and so usually miss the arguments entirely. From a writer's perspective, I finished four big bangs in the space of six months last year and then didn't really write much else the rest of the year, comparatively. I'm one of those people who do best when they've got a deadline boring down on them, so I'm all for signing up for challenges, as many as interest me, and no matter if they overlap. But I'm kind of crazy that way.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Same here. I'm lucky enough that I mostly don't have to ignore my other writing while I'm working on Big Bangs, but I have a weird schedule and I use writing as a way to procrastinate on everything else I have to do, so I can see how not-crazy people would have time constraints that would make multiple challenges an issue.

[claudiapriscus.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of a gen big bang, even if only as a gen reader. There is just soo much slash and RPS on the J2 BB that it's easy to miss the gen stories.

Plus, also, I'm kind of a chicken and the idea of a smaller (and possibly friendlier, too, if only because of size) BB appeals.

[nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com]

That's exactly the appeal of a gen BB. Because I really don't have the time to read a BB so I stick to recs (mainly via hoodie_time or ohsam) and avoid them because there's so much slash, RPS, and RPF and I'm just not drawn to any of those... and the gen is easily missed.

But I'm also kind of timid and need reviews more than I admit even to myself and I'm nervous that with the J2 BB the outcome (rewards, aka reviews) will not balance out the work and love that went into it... but then again there's the argument that such a new BB will encourage reader fatigue and there's also the perspective of something so new not getting the same attention as the J2 BB which seems to be the holy grail of BB in this fandom....

Consequently, I'm still debating about what to do with the BB...

[zoemathemata.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the problem either.
and actually, having multiple big bangs REALLY appeals to my 'LET'S ORGANIZE EVERYTHING' type-A nature.
For me, I would sit down and think what kind of story I was thinking of writing and then just sign up for a big bang that matched it. But that's because I like matchy-matchy stuff like that.

I just think that more big bangs = more opportunity for people to write. Maybe one big bang has a better schedule over another. *shrug*

Or if I was a reader of only slash or only gen or only one ship, I would actually prefer more streamlined bigbangs! to hopefully drum up more writers!

[icelily01.livejournal.com]

Im thread jacking to say I completely agree with this entire comment. Well said, well said.

AND that your icon is pretty much my childhood summed up. I love old school Christmas movies like whoa.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

Wow. Well this is the first I've heard of this. And I don't really see a problem with the creation of an all Gen BigBang as long as the schedule for it doesn't coincide with the other popular challenges. This summer was actually the first time I knew about the j2/spn bigbang and was going through stories as they were being posted. I can guess as to what the problem was with the original post (something derogatory against slash I'm thinking), but that doesn't mean that another challenge might not be a good idea. Though at the same time the spn/j2 bigbang doesn't exclude gen, and I would think if an author wanted to write gen they could do it then, but if for whatever reason they couldn't another challenge couldn't hurt...?

[claudiapriscus.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I don't think the post was anti-slash as much as it just was kind of the feeling that gen works are utterly buried and don't get any love because they aren't slash. (though, I must admit, the way it was written could read as kind of wanky)

[bellatemple]

I still think of it as superfluous, but that's pretty much all I got. I'm not in the "OMG IT'S WRONG AND BAD AND EVIL" camp, or anything. I honestly don't entirely *get* the whole big bang thing, anyway (yes, I know, despite having participated in one for three years), so any controversy that pops up tends to make me snort and shrug.

You make excellent points, especially about the timing of the spn_j2_bigbang. It works out for me, personally, because focusing on one large fic helps keep me from going nuts all winter, and makes the time go faster, but I'm not a student. And if someone decided "Oh, I'm going to skip doing spn_j2 in favor of the gen thing later in the year" and thus the fics came out more sporadically? It'd certainly do my list of things to read some good.

Maybe there should be, like, a rolling big bang, something where artists and authors just kinda hang together in a planning comm and collaborate as they go. Or, like, have a once a month summary list/artist claim so folks can roll in and roll out when the timing works best for them.

I dunno. I'm sitting here staring at my first quilt, which at the moment is looking WAY more time intensive than any fanfic, so my brain isn't quite in the question, just now.

ETA and now I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, "dude, it could work reverseways, too, you could have an 'art looking for fic' post once a month to go with the 'fic looking for art' post -- people could send in the roughs at some point during the month, so long as it fit within certain parameters, like, over 10,000 words or at minimum 600x400 pixels or whatever, and each month those that had been put in get posted for artists/writers to claim for illustrating/ficcing, to be posted, say, during the next month or something. It'd be, like, a want ads for fanwork collaboration.

I blame you, ratherastory. I blame you. ;D

[nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com]

ETA and now I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, "dude, it could work reverseways, too, you could have an 'art looking for fic' post once a month to go with the 'fic looking for art' post -- people could send in the roughs at some point during the month, so long as it fit within certain parameters, like, over 10,000 words or at minimum 600x400 pixels or whatever, and each month those that had been put in get posted for artists/writers to claim for illustrating/ficcing, to be posted, say, during the next month or something. It'd be, like, a want ads for fanwork collaboration.

I thought that was the point of the Reverse Bang -- art is posted, fic-writers claim and write stories at least 10-20K based on the art.

[tahirire.livejournal.com]

As someone who has done the big bang challenge in the classic comm, I totally understand the feeling that the gen is drowned out by all the rps and slashfic. On the same token, though, I also feel that SUPERNATURAL was drowned out last year by RPS fic in general. I don't even read Sam/Dean and I was reading them last year just because there was hardly any SPN fic at all to read otherwise. (This IS the SPN fandom,right? Or maybe I took a wrong turn at Leverage Street? Anyway, the mind, it boggles.)

I plan to do a big bang this year. I had a great time when I did it in 09 and I wished I had the time to do it last year. (I'm one of those evil massochistic people who was kind of sad they missed out on going through the anon meme cheese grater, LOL. I think I have like 4 people on my flist that give me actual concrit. I appreciate everyone that reads a story, but ... you know how there's making love, and then sometimes you just want someone to give it to you rough? *snerk* )

I personally am not averse to a gen-only big bang comm, but there are several things about it that make me take pause.

1) I only skimmed the post so I could be wrong, but I somehow picked up the impression that the challenge would run at the same time? It would be a plus for me if it ran later. I hate trying to write OVER new canon. Throws off my muses. :)

2) This fandom is INCAPABLE of deciding on a single solid definition for the term gen fic. I've had stories rejected from gen comms because they contained canon relationships. I'm not interested in making sure my story has no romantic relationships whatsoever, but if the new comm is down with something non-explicitly canon compliant, then that's ok by me. I've seen wank go on and on and ON about this subject, even in my own comm, and if that kicks up then I'm out. BOREDNAO, NEWTHING PLZ.

3) The old comm's stories, even though they post over a long period of time, DO get more exposure, at least for now.

4)The big bang is the largest challenge in this fandom, it's tradition, and I almost feel like splitting the gen out is like getting kicked off the team to go jump rope with yourself in a corner. It makes me indignant, like ... why should *I* leave, at least I'm writing SUPERNATURAL FICTION.

Idk Idk. So conflicted.

[claudiapriscus.livejournal.com]

kind of random, and unlikely to happen, but I think a gen BB run through spngenlove would be really awesome. It had (IMO) the best and most sensible definition of gen to date- which was, IIRC, it allowed for shades of gray, but the important thing was that relationships couldn't be the centerpiece, there couldn't be anything explicit, and that if you felt you had something that was one the line, but was still gen, you could rec it as long as you mentioned/warned for it. The one exception was wincest, and even then there was a little room when, say, it came to anything involving Becky.

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

Being a complete novice to all things fandom and bangish, could someone kindly provide some definitions for me? When you say 'gen', do you mean 'general'? And what's a 'flist'?

I'm not particularly into the slashy stuff either, and would adore to find some fitting SPN fic and BigBang opportunities (as an artist, at this point). Not sure why anyone would get in a spin simply because other BigBangs popped up. There's a flavor for everyone out there.

ratherastory, you've been very generous with your recommendations, btw! I'm still trying to track down and filter through stuff to subscribe to. Thanks in advance...

[claudiapriscus.livejournal.com]

flist is your friends list here on livejournal.

Gen is...I guess it comes from general, and everyone would debate on the term from here to kingdom come, but generally speaking, it means something between "something that could be canon" (which means either very canon-faithful or that it could be shown on prime time network TV without the FCC throwing a fit) and "no relationships" and "only canonical relationships" and "no explicit relationships"

It's pretty much defined by what it isn't...which is slash.

[callistosh65.livejournal.com]

In the words of our boys.. 'I got nothin''. Can we not cross-read?? Hell, we cross post all the time.*g* In smaller fandoms this is oftenan issue, this worry about dividing fandom. But unless something becomes divided along clique and personality lines ( which has sadly happened in one of my smaller fandoms), I really don't see the need to wring our hands and panic.

[viridian-magpie.livejournal.com]

Time constraints aside, I probably wouldn't sign up for a gen bigbang for the simple reason that I can't predict whether or not a character will end up in bed with another when I start writing a story. (*squints* run-on sentence. Sorry.)

Unless the whole point is that they get together.

I do realise that this isn't how it works for everyone.

Anyway, I think pairing or trope-specific bigbangs (kinkbigbang, au bigbang, apocalypse bigbang) are a good idea, but I wouldn't set them up as a rival. What? Why? What for? I saw the post you're referring to and it made me go O_o for this reason. (Well, more for the other reasons, which we're not mentioning here, actually, but *waves hand* not going into it here.)

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Yes, ignoring the *other* reason (which, dear God, I can't even), the post was REALLY poorly worded. I know that the other fan who wanted the Gen BB was very specific in NOT setting it up against the main BB, but rather it being an "as well as" sort of thing.

[autumn-lilacs.livejournal.com]

What I don't get, like I said, is the notion that somehow this is some sort of twisted, underhanded ploy to divide fandom. Maybe I'm missing something, but when did this notion come about? There were a few people, myself included, that didn't think a gen BB would achieve the goals listed in the original post, but I followed along in the comments and didn't see anyone stating such dire consequences as dividing a fandom. But I only followed one post about it, so maybe this was expressed elsewhere?

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there were multiple posts in places about this, and in a few there were cries of dismay along the lines of: "Oh no, this is exactly like the Dean/Cas Big Bang, which divided fandom last year!"

Only I don't think fandom got more or less divided when the DCBB took place, so I was confused.

[primrose-1.livejournal.com]

Dividing fandom- how is that possible? It's either you love the show or you don't. If you're moved to write and talk about the show, and make friends with others who like the show, then you're a part of the fandom. Period. I am not going to enjoy every creative endeavor, or opinion that comes from that fandom- but that doesn't make me hate the show.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Exactly! But some people seem to be determined to... I don't know, feel as though they're deliberately being excluded because of an event like that that would have a more deliberate scope.

[jaimeykay.livejournal.com]

tbh, I don't really understand it, either. I haven't been in fandom long and this has been my only one, but I'm being told by a lot of people that gen is actually treated very well in SPN fandom. Pretty much all I write is gen and I've always satisfied with the feedback.

I feel like having more big bangs would make people's fic get buried even further, you know? In the end, it's really up to the writer. I understand putting tons of work into a piece and not getting the attention you thought, but you have to decide for yourself why you're writing.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

I gotta say, I have never felt mistreated by the SPN fandom. No one has ever looked at my fic and said "Ugh, gen. Blech." or anything like that.

Opinions seem divided on whether or not another Big Bang would just serve to bury fic. I can't see how it would, myself, but maybe I'm missing something, you know?

[scarletsherlock.livejournal.com]

Forgive me, I've been away for quite a few days, but I'd loooove a gen big bang. I have no intentions of ever doing the spn j2 big bang ever again. It was just TOO big for me, I think.