Did Show ever explain this?

[ratherastory]

Hey folks, help a fangirl out with a canon problem?

We know that Castiel is the one who brought Sam back from the Cage sans soul, right?

Who brought back Samuel Campbell? He came back with his soul, right? But who brought him back, and for what reason? Did Show ever come out and tell us? Was it Crowley, as a counter-point to Cas, maybe just to further his own demonic agenda and keep an eye on Sam?

The whole Campbell thing was never explained/developed to my satisfaction. They had a really interesting concept there and instead it turned into a family of douchebags who all died really quickly (except for Sampa and Gwen) and for pretty much no reason I could determine.

Oops. That turned into a rant. Still, I need to know about Samuel for Reasons™.

Anyone know?

Comments

[alexseanchai]

I miss Gwen.

I believe Crowley said in the flashbacks in 6x20 that he'd bring Samuel back. Why Samuel and not Mary or John (or Deanna) is beyond me.

[klutzy-girl.livejournal.com]

I'm 95% sure it was Crowley.

[jennytork.livejournal.com]

I don't think they ever came right out and said.

Sorry.

My personal headcanon is that it was Crowley, and for reasons that you stated.

[mymuseandi.livejournal.com]

As far as I can understand from the show, it was Crowley who brought him back, because there was a time when Grandpa Samuel was talking about how he was helping Crowley and he was promised Mary as incentive.

But since Crowley was essentially working under Cas, so maybe he was brought back as a specialist, of sorts, to track down the Alphas? Since the Campbell family is well known for hunting right? But that also raises the question of why he didn't raise any Winchester family because they are also well known in the hunting circles?

Am I confusing you more with this?

[liliaeth]

Well before John, the Winchesters weren't hunters. And Crowley would know better than to try and get John to work for him.

[samantha890.livejournal.com]

And Crowley would know better than to try and get John to work for him.

*giggles madly* I would have loved to see him try. :D

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

There's a scene in one of the missing year flashbacks in 6.20 where Cas is talking to Crowley and refuses to have Dean involved in the whole search for purgatory thing, so Crowley says that there's a bald-headed patriarch he can take off the bench. So I think it was, indeed, Crowley, with Cas's knowledge but not an idea that originated with Cas.

The problem is that that suggests that Samuel was in hell, in Crowley's domain, rather than heaven, as Samuel said. You can fanwank it that Samuel was lying to Sam and Dean to conceal his bargain with Crowley, but the Campbell plot is full of loose ends.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

I don't think Samuel was in Hell. For one, with his soul and memories intact, that would suggest he should be waaaay more traumatized than he is, since he would have been in Hell since, oh, 1972. That's 4,800 years of torture, give or take. Heck, he wouldn't be human anymore.

That being said, there is precedent for a deal getting someone out of Heaven (Sam), and Crowley insinuates he can get Mary back and she's definitely not in Hell.


Bah. Stupid Campbell plotline. Why so full of holes? *shakes fist*

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

True. There's not exactly anyone for Crowley to be making a deal with, but having come at the job of King of Hell via head crossroads demon, he could probably just override the paperwork and get at Samuel. And maybe the fact that the whole family -- Samuel and Mary as well as Sam and Dean -- had been pieces on the angels and demons playing board meant that they were particularly accessible. That could be why Crowley thought of Samuel as someone he had on his bench, rather than bringing back, say, Colt, or some other random legendary hunter of the past.

[de-nugis.livejournal.com]

Here's the relevant bit of transcript, FWIW:

CROWLEY We'll need expert help.
CASTIEL From whom?
CROWLEY From experts, of course. I know of two eerily suited 'Teen Beat' models with time on their hands.
CASTIEL No. Not Dean. He's retired, and he's to stay that way.
CROWLEY Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. The point is...They can get us to the monsters. The monsters can get us to Purgatory. I know it.

Which I think definitively rules out Cas being the one who brought Samuel bag, but I misremembered Crowley's words -- he just said he knows of Samuel and can take him off the bench, not that he HAD Samuel. That fits with Samuel being in heaven but Crowley being able to get him, I think.

[hsifeng.livejournal.com]

See, this never made any sense to me and I don't know that it means that Crowley did the *actual* extraction. I was always of the head canon that Crowley had Balthazar on the take (like with the removal of the items from the heavenly arsenal) and that he got Balth to do the actual Samuel Extraction.

Because if the King of Hell can just go waltzing into Heaven and making deals with saved souls, then there is a MUCH bigger problem with the barriers between these two kingdoms than I have been lead to believe.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think Crowley is a sneaky little bastard and can pull off most heists. Just not in Heaven.

On the other hand, if Crowley is somehow helping Balthazar to stay off the Angel Radar in exchange for things like weapons, then I think ganking one cranky old man would be on the menu as well.

And really, the promise to get Mary doesn't prove anything to me. Crowley also said that he could get Sam's soul and he lied about that to get what he wanted...

*shrug*

[jackien1968.livejournal.com]

My reaction to that bit of dialogue was "Ha! I knew it! Samuel so was not "pulled down" from Heaven." My gut reaction when Samuel had said he was "pulled down" had been liar-liar-pants-on-fire.

Maybe being in Hell wasn't all torment all the time for people who weren't important; like, not enough to shred them to bits emotionally.

Dean was tortured to the limit of Alastair's considerable abilities because they needed to break him to get started on the seals.

Maybe a little hanging from a rack, a little being flayed, a little flaying others, etc., didn't especially traumatize Samuel even if it went on for 4800 years. Maybe he's just not that sensitive or that deep.

Crowley said a problem with old Hell was that torture wasn't that big a torment for all comers; waiting in line is a torment for everyone.

*shrug* just my 2 cents

Jackie

[cappy712.livejournal.com]

I don't remember the show explaining the person who brough Grandpa back - I do believe that Crowley took the credit in order to have leverage over Grandpa in the form of Mary.

If you notice, when the cousins and grandpa were introduced in Exile on Main Street (Mark, Christian, Gwen the Gramps) that is the order in which they died as well.

When Castiel confessed that He was the one who brought Sam back, it was to show that he cared but it came out in a way that made it seem like he took him out of the cage without his soul, I believe that was a mistake on Castiel's part. As far as we know Samuel was in heaven so it wasn't too hard for Castiel to find Samuel in heaven and have him sent back. Crowley again taking the credit as leverage.

Hope that helps.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you!

[jennytork.livejournal.com]

side note -- ever wonder if the 'something, something once removed' was a blooper on Jared's part that sounded so perfect they kept it in?

I'm of the mind it just might be....

[madebyme-x.livejournal.com]

It was my understanding that Crowley brought Samuel back after making a deal with him regrading the Alpha's for Mary. I believe Crowley and Cas discussed some of this in a flashback scene in 6.20 and I know Samuel mentioned Mary at some point I just can't remember when, maybe 6.16?

But judging by the above comments there may be a few holes in the storyline (or maybe my memory and understanding of it!). I guess that after writing the show for seven years there's bound to be a few holes along the way!

If this is for a fic, you could always bend the canon to suit or fill any holes with your best educated guesses – after all, that's one of the many reason we all write fan fic!

I hope this helps. Good luck and take care, :)

[tahirire.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion? Cas. Cas didn't want to get Dean into the Alpha hunt, so Crowley told him he had someone else he could take off the bench, someone even more knowledgeable. Originally Samuel told Sam that whatever pulled Sam up pulled him down, and essentially I think that was true, but Sam was 'up' first. Samuel telling Sam he had no idea who brought them back may not have actually been a lie - he only dealt with Crowley, and when he met Cas they didn't seem to know each other.

*dodges plot holes like a baws*

[quickreaver.livejournal.com]

My knee-jerk response is Crowley. But then I read tahirire's post and now I'm waffling. Let's say 90% Crowley, 10% Cas.

I'm of half a mind (not surprising!) that Crowley raised Sam too. He came back w/o a handprint...

[4422shini.livejournal.com]

Like others have said, I believe it was Crowley. In The Man That Would Be King, Crowley says to Castiel (paraphrase) 'I'll take out this patriarch, Samuel, and get him to work for me opening purgatory'.

[katwoman76.livejournal.com]

Crowley

[cherry916.livejournal.com]

I believe it was Crowley, I don't think the show directly stated that (Correct me if I am wrong) but I think Samuel knew who brought him back and was lying to a Soulless Sam about that (because he was working with Crowley the whole time.)