ratherastory (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
ratherastory) wrote2011-03-02 06:20 pm
ratherastory) wrote2011-03-02 06:20 pm
Entry tags:
Fandom definitions: non-con and dub-con
Hola, flist!
Okay, I can no longer claim to be new to fandom (damn, has it really been almost a year and a half?), but there are still aspects that I find hard to define/quantify/whatever.
This has popped up lately because of a problematic fic (which I haven't read, I will hasten to point out), in which there is apparently an issue of consent. Without getting into the actual debate about posting warnings (for the record, in fandom my rule of thumb is "better safe than sorry" and "add warnings if your readers inform you that they found the material triggering"), I would like to clarify the whole notion of dub-con and non-con.
"Dub-con" is something I had never heard of before fandom. I used to be a pretty active member of a feminist group back when I was in university (yes, back in the dark ages), and so as far as I was concerned, until I got into fandom, the issue of consent was pretty cut-and-dried. No means no, is the catchphrase I live by. Being pressured into sex means no. Being drugged unconscious before sex means no. Feeling like you have no choice but to have sex means no. No means that any attempt to have sex with you is an attempted rape. A husband who has sex with his wife when she tells him she's not in the mood is, in fact, committing rape. In short, I err on the side of caution when it comes to that.
Okay, so rape is not a term I see often in the warnings for fic. Rape usually gets translated into "non-con." Which, okay, I can understand, because the term itself can be triggery.
So what, exactly, constitutes dub-con? I figure this HAS to be a grey area, so I'm curious to hear opinions on the matter. Readers, what do you consider dub-con? Writers, when do you decide to warn for dub-con?
Also, if you feel like staying anonymous, that's fine, just keep it civilized. :)
Okay, I can no longer claim to be new to fandom (damn, has it really been almost a year and a half?), but there are still aspects that I find hard to define/quantify/whatever.
This has popped up lately because of a problematic fic (which I haven't read, I will hasten to point out), in which there is apparently an issue of consent. Without getting into the actual debate about posting warnings (for the record, in fandom my rule of thumb is "better safe than sorry" and "add warnings if your readers inform you that they found the material triggering"), I would like to clarify the whole notion of dub-con and non-con.
"Dub-con" is something I had never heard of before fandom. I used to be a pretty active member of a feminist group back when I was in university (yes, back in the dark ages), and so as far as I was concerned, until I got into fandom, the issue of consent was pretty cut-and-dried. No means no, is the catchphrase I live by. Being pressured into sex means no. Being drugged unconscious before sex means no. Feeling like you have no choice but to have sex means no. No means that any attempt to have sex with you is an attempted rape. A husband who has sex with his wife when she tells him she's not in the mood is, in fact, committing rape. In short, I err on the side of caution when it comes to that.
Okay, so rape is not a term I see often in the warnings for fic. Rape usually gets translated into "non-con." Which, okay, I can understand, because the term itself can be triggery.
So what, exactly, constitutes dub-con? I figure this HAS to be a grey area, so I'm curious to hear opinions on the matter. Readers, what do you consider dub-con? Writers, when do you decide to warn for dub-con?
Also, if you feel like staying anonymous, that's fine, just keep it civilized. :)
no subject
I think to me 'dub-con' is usually meant to imply that the party in question wants it on some level, or ends up enjoying it, or changes their mind midway through the act about wanting/not wanting it. It's kind of an insidious thing, since one might come to the conclusion that this makes it okay. As far as I'm concerned, dub-con and non-con/rape are flavors of the same thing. It's not my cup of tea, but neither are a lot of kinks, and I'm okay with it as long as it stays in people's heads and no one thinks it's acceptable in the real world.
no subject
But really, fandom is that playground, as you say, in which people can explore those little fantasies. It doesn't mean that it's going to happen in real life ("end up enjoying it") or that having sex with a partner who's drunk is ever okay.
So, in other words: THIS.
no subject
Yeah, I didn't think of those.
I think drunk sex is kind of a muddy issue, especially when you get into scenarios such as when both parties are drunk, or if they are in an established, happy, sex-filled relationship. I think to be safe, a sober person should probably never have sex with a drunk person. If both parties are drunk and give such consent as they are able to... well, not much can be done about that. ^_^;;
Yes. This.
(Anonymous) 2011-03-03 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)This makes sense to me. And is very helpful as I try to fill a prompt for someone at the spn kink meme. I honestly wasn't sure to classify as dub or non...but this is also my take on the issue - only much more succinct than I could have managed :)