ratherastory | Season 8 non-thoughts

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Crossposts: http://ratherastory.livejournal.com/240933.html

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Season 8 non-thoughts

I have lots and lots of thoughts about Season 8. The problem is that I'm a little too anxious to post them here or anywhere else, because it feels like all I've seen online lately is people getting more firmly entrenched in a pro-$brother position. As though somehow one brother has to be unconditionally right and the other unconditionally wrong. A lot of it is anti-Sam, which hurts my little Sam!girl heart, but I've seen enough anti-Dean commentary to make my stomach hurty as well. :P In fact, it's making me actively avoid any meta/commentary posts even by people I normally trust, because I can't trust that the comments won't be full of vitriol, and I'm worried that even these lovely, sane people might somehow fall down the same rabbit hole and then I would be sad. (No, it's not rational, whatever.)

I hope I can safely say that it isn't about who's right and who's wrong. Both boys have been very badly damaged/hurt by what happened, and they're each coping in their own way. They're both entitled to their feelings, and they're both right and wrong. That's always been the strength of the show: that every character has their reasons for what they're doing, and while we may disagree with the choices they make (and for the record, mistakes are choices by definition, otherwise they'd be accidents), we can understand where they're coming from and why they're acting the way they are.

Also, it feels like it's frowned upon to not have strong feelings about the season. You're supposed to love it or hate it, but you're not allowed to like some parts and not others. God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel.

In short, I don't think I can post my thoughts without having to put in several thousand caveats first, and that is sucking the fun out of it.

FML. People, PLEASE don't post comments in here about how Show is "clearly" favouring one brother over another. You are PROVING MY POINT about why I am reluctant to post anything or even click on meta links. Take it to your own journals! Please and thank you.

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LOL at your eta! Typical. I'm just enjoying this season as a Monster-of-the-Week type show, and to look at the pretty, pretty boys.

I do have a bit of a soft spot for Benny though :)

Yeah, it was in my LJ entry, so over here it must seem a little weird. ;)

I'm enjoying this season so far. I like Benny, not fond of Amelia but curious to see what they do with her, and looking forward to seeing Cas again.

Amen! I am sooo glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels that way; I really thought it was just me. *hug* I feel like I'm being chased out of fandom 'cause I'm not being crazytown about it.

Argh. It's SO frustrating! Everywhere I look it's either fanatical hatred of one character or another or else totally uncritical squee. I get the latter, but if I express even the slightest reservation about the show I get "OMG YOU'RE HARSHING MY SQUEE YOU TOTAL HATER TO THE LEFT!"

In short: ugh.

The revival of the brother wars (well, I suppose they never died down altogether, but this feels like s4 levels of bad and I only experienced s4 a little bit after the fact and that was traumatic enough) is doing a number on me as well.

Quite apart from shortage of time, I've gotten very, very cautious in what I read.

But it's still good to see you around and posting or not posting fan thoughts!

*hugs*

It's good to see you around too! I know things have gotten bad in your neck of the woods. Glad you're hanging in there.

I never saw the S4 brother wars, but I read SO many awful, awful posts during S5-6-7 from people who I thought were reasonable that this year it's made me pull back a lot, just to protect myself.

I wish I could quit fandom. I think it would free up a lot of time and make my life a lot less stressful. But then I'd miss out on all the good things about fandom too. It's a conundrum. Then again, I'm addicted, can't see how I'd give it up anytime soon.

I wasn't here in s4 either. But when I was first getting to know fandom and LJ I read a lot of people's back posts and episode reviews and . . . yikes. Between that and the fact that the first Spn venue I discovered, before I found LJ, was TWoP, I'm amazed I ever decided to plunge into these shark infested waters.

I hope the real life stress isn't too stressful. I wonder the same thing, sometimes, whether I might do better to give up on fandom, given that at the moment something more easily gratifying might be nice to have in my life. Especially since I have barely managed to read fic for months. But the good of the company and preoccupation and escape from the rest of life still outweighs the bad, and anyway, like you, I'm an addict.

You're supposed to love it or hate it, but you're not allowed to like some parts and not others. God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel.

You summed up exactly how I feel with this. I'm enjoying the show and I still look forward to it each week but it's almost like I wanna watch it while peeking from behind my fingers, you know? And it's not even because anything about SPN scares me at all lol. It's just so....hurty. I think if this was a dvd set where I could move through the storyline to understand the bigger picture, it would be easier. Right now we are left in the dark, and purposely so I think. Carver did keep saying it was all about perception so idk. Sam keeps saying he told Dean why he didn't look for him, but he really hasn't. Until they realize this and actually hash things out (without being possessed at the time mind you), they will never come back to the middle. I can't see it never being resolved though. I mean, there would be no show if they didn't. However, who knows if it'll be resolved the way we want or to the degree we want. We don't write the show after all. But I can't give up on it yet. Somehow I just understand that the withdrawal from the show would hurt more than seeing those boys fight lol.

I just understand that the withdrawal from the show would hurt more than seeing those boys fight.

This, exactly. /o\

I know exactly how you feel. I don't venture much outside my own FLIST either lately. You might enjoy this meta on the last ep, by

ash48. She's very bi-bro and most of the comments so far are as well. (Esp. of course, the one by

de_nugis!)

Glad you're still having a lot of feeeeeelings! Me too.

I saw the link, as she's on my flist, but I'm not clicking on anything these days. I can't trust that the comments won't suddenly devolve into "Sam is a spoiled asshole who doesn't deserve Dean!" or "I want someone to kick Dean's ass for being so awful to Sam!" :P I realize I'm not being rational, but I won't put myself through that after getting burned last week.

But yes, I am having ALL the feelings about this season!

I just read the meta (which is really really awesome and understanding both POVs) and the comments and I would tell you to read it. People is having really good thoutfull and deep conversations there, without wank and without hating on any of the brothers. And In fact they make some really good points that have made me like this episode a lot better.

And yet... *points down* It only takes ONE comment. I may sneak over there and try not to scroll too much. Eep.

Hee... I was going to comment about how I haven't experienced that hate when I saw this comment by

harrigan. I feel like I've either been lucky or sheltered to not have read the bro hate. Mine you, I don't wonder far from LJ so that might help.

The thing that I've loved seeing fans having a really thoughtful discussion on the scene (and episode) without it becoming a brawl on who is right or wrong. I've always maintained that the scene has nothing to do with who is right or wrong. It's so much deeper than that.

In the past the boys fighting used to stress me. Then, after a couple of seasons of them basically getting along, I feel ready for them to finally thrash out some of their more deep seated issues.

If you read nothing else over there I do recommend

de_nugis's comment. It's rather beautiful.

But I hear ya. I sometimes wonder if the nastiness is due to some fans not enjoying the show anymore and therefore need to find ways to "blame" one bro or the other. It always puzzles me that they don't look beyond that to see the bigger picture. But perhaps they just don't want to.

*hugs*

You're lucky. *points to latest comment* I posted here about how I'm worried about accidentally stumbling on brother vs brother wank, and instead someone brought it to me. How thoughtful. :P

So you can see why I'm leery of clicking on things. Even my sane friends like you have posts that are popular enough that they can attract people who will want Sam to be unconditionally right or Dean to be unconditionally right. It drives me nuts.

GRRRR! How annoying! And so damn shallow.

And considering what I wrote I am surprised I haven't had any wank posted. One came close but other than that the thinky thoughts have been amazing. Fans are so clever - and when the discussion is civil it's fabulous fun.

xx

Also, it feels like it's frowned upon to not have strong feelings about the season. You're supposed to love it or hate it, but you're not allowed to like some parts and not others. God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel.

THIS, oh my god. O_O I feel like I'm being judged for still watching the show now that I don't enjoy it to the same levels I used to. It bugs the crap out of me, because YES, I still love the boys, and there are parts of this season I really love even if others have me feeling kind of meh, but I'm scared to ever post my 'meh' thoughts because I feel like I'll get bombarded with "YOU'RE HARSHING MY SQUEE!" and "WHY DO YOU STILL WATCH IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!"

Can't I just live in my nice happy middle ground where there are pros and cons and likes and dislikes and everyone can enjoy it or not enjoy it however they want to?

Er. Sorry. I may have gone on a bit of a tangent there. ^^;

Right? Gah. Just because I don't enjoy some aspects of the show doesn't mean I am shitting all over it. I am just not as heavily invested as I used to be, that's ALL. >_

I have read some very good meta on season eight that is not only thoughtful and though-provoking, but also pro-BOTH boys.

Over at

spn_heavymeta Really excellent stuff. :) I'd love to read your thinky thoughts, as well.

*points to post content*

Nope. Not doing it. But it's nice to know that there is good stuff happening out there. I just don't trust fandom right now to even read other people's meta, let alone post thoughts of my own.

i remember this kind of thing happening the beginning of season 6 with the whole soulless Sam. then it fell off after the big reveal.

i'm thinking there's something we still don't know about Sam and Dean.

but i can dig the vitriol about this. it's like politics!! one of the people on my friends list is all i'm never watching Spn again!! grrr! with such anger and hatred. i can dig that person is upset, but like you said, what these boys have been through....

and then there's the writers. they have something planned for the whole season and they are telling it a chapter at a time. its like watching a WIP!!

i like talking about it. i talk to my husband (who doesn't watch it, lol) and he just nods and hmmms.

Sam has a reason for not looking for Dean and Dean has a reason for trusting and calling Benny a friend. I am excited to find out what they are.

I'm excited to find out about those reasons too! :)

Aww, I'm sad you feel you can't post your thoughts. I too have seen some very Sam-hate and Dean-hate posts, but I've also seen your average "what I thought about the episode/this season" posts too.

Personally I'm a little confused about what the writers are doing with Sam this season, but I have faith that eventually things will make better sense!

See, I find that the Sam-hate and Dean-hate creeps into the regular-Joe posts, too, in the comments. So I decided to back away entirely.

I hear ya, I always post my episode reviews and welcome discussion. But even my very watered down review, being nice and civil to both characters has resulted in a Sam backlash and people commentating telling me Dean is right and Sam is wrong. Gah, I even got accused of being a Dean hater because I analyzed his character and criticized him a little on his attitude. The saddest thing is, like you said people want to make it a black and white case. One brother is right the other is wrong and that's it. It's always game of whose the bigger assholes this season and I'm sick of it. Like you said, both are right and wrong in their own respects. And like

de_nugis pointed out it's mirroring the S4 levels of bad (I was there through it all yikes!) and that was scary,e specially if you were a Sam!girl you were condemned on the spot for even trying to understand him.

Anyway, it's sad you can't even click on a meta/commentary without feeling like you'll get slammed with the wank. I understand what you mean completely.

Yep. I have chosen to remove my hand from the crazy in that regard, and even then I still see it every so often (on Twitter, on Tumblr, on LJ and DW when people don't always cut their entries or warn or whatever). So it's made me a little cautious.

I understand how you feel. I hardly read any meta/comments/review noadays because it's always one of the brothers being trashed and it makes me sad. My inner Sam!girl broke into tears several times reading what people was saying after the first two chapters so now I'm staying out of it. Can I admit I was wary of reading this post because of that same reason? but I'm really glad you're sticking there with being a sane pro-brothers person!

God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel.

And yes! This is it! I'm enjoying some parts and others not at all. But I've somehow found a peace of mind in which I see the season as some kind of AU and I see it with less emotional involvement. I was afraid it would make me turn my back in fanfiction completely but not, season 1-7 fics with good characterization still makes my heart radiate love for Sam and Dean. I'll even dare to read some fix-it S8 soon. I won't let whatever happens under Carver's reign to sully my love and idea (kripke's idea) of family and Sam and Dean. and their epic love story. I'll wait and see if I accept this season into my canon or not.

But I don't want brother's wars, and I'm tired of one brother being right and other wrong (and tired of being usually the same brother in those roles). But I'll keep trying to understand both points, how both brothers are broken and hope for a climax in which they find each other again.

We've already talked about this a bit elsewhere, but: SO MUCH WORD, sad as it is. :/

*brofist*

"God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel."

Yes, I definitely feel this way. I still like watching it, but there's less of an OMG IT'S SPN TONIGHT feeling, more of a "Hey, SPN's on, this should be fun."

Might be I like S8 less than other episodes, might be I'm just a different person than I was a few years ago and Supernatural is less important to me.

It's a TV program, not your spouse you swore a solemn oath to. It's OK to say, "I still like it but it's not as big a part of my life."

That's always been the strength of the show: that every character has their reasons for what they're doing, and while we may disagree with the choices they make (and for the record, mistakes are choices by definition, otherwise they'd be accidents), we can understand where they're coming from and why they're acting the way they are.

Yes! Something I like best about the show is these are not perfect characters. They are damaged, sometimes make bad choices with awful consequences, but they also have a tremendous capacity for nobility, bravery, compassion, and forgiveness. Anything else would be so very dull. And I like the JJs, too, as they seem like really good folks who stay out of the gossip pages and rehab. :-) And yes, sometimes I don't care for an episode or a storyline, maybe even a lot, but I believe in letting writers tell their stories, and I don't presume that if I curse enough on boards about them they'll cave to the pressure. Even in my least favorite episodes, I always find a few things I really appreciate.

I've been watching since early season 2, and I've always seen lots of fandom vitriol (either directed at a character, at fic writers of certain genres, or at the JJs themselves) in waxing and waning cycles. I stopped reading discussions except for maybe 1 or 2 lighthearted folks, and I unfriended people who no longer could tell the difference between real life and TV. I prefer to read about the cinematography, look at raloria's on set pics, or read fic.

I tremendously enjoyed the fic you posted a few days ago!

I have a big problem with the fact that the show's position is that Dean is always unconditionally right.

Take it to your own journal, please. You have just proven why I was reluctant to post anything at all. I guess I'll have to go add some warnings/caveats/whatever to my post.

Yeah, I've been feeling that same reluctance because I just don't want to deal with the brother versus brother that inevitably seems to show up any time you try to talk about what's going on. But at the same time I really want to talk about it! Augh, conundrum. It gets exhausting feeling like you have to explain the psychology of both brothers GOING BACK TO THEIR CHILDHOODS to get anywhere in a lot of conversations because people are so settled into their certainty that one brother has it worse than the other, or the show is out to get one character or the other, etc.

It makes me sad, because a lot of awesome people on my flist seem to have gone quiet, and I can't help but wonder if many of us are quiet for the same reasons.

Don't know if anyone suggested this, but I highly recommend this post and comments for some extremely insightful and non-bashing meta:

http://ash48.livejournal.com/282505.html

They have, and I have taken a quick peek, but I'm always worried that the comments will devolve on posts like these. They have on other "safe" posts I've looked at.

Thanks!

Thanks for convincing me to put a huge honking warning on my Season 8 fic for the hoodie_time challenge. I may be particularly frustrated with one brother or the other at the moment, but there's too much we aren't being told right now from both sides, and too many fans aren't being charitable. So I definitely don't want anyone bashing either Sam or Dean in my reviews or fighting with each other in my space. (Besides, the silly thing's liable to get Jossed anyway....)

*sigh*

Sorry if I rained on your parade a bit, there. I'm even having trouble with some fic summaries, for I am a delicate snowflake. ;)

Nah, no worries. :) Honestly, I'd rather cater to people like you than not, and I was already debating how to phrase my summary to show that it's not bashing either character (and it's not; it's really more of a reconciliation story). I just don't understand the vitriol when we don't have the whole picture yet.

Not a bad idea to be a little self protective - I'm more careful than I used to be about what I read too. I think when there's alot of passion (like there is in fandom), there's alot of passion in all sorts of directions, and sometimes that can be painful. I don't understand why so many people get so polarized, as it's not how I enjoy watching, but I think whenever you have alot of strong feelings, there's that risk. People care, and want things to go whichever way they want them. I enjoy going along for the ride, wherever that takes me :)

*big hugs* Fandom is hard, yo.

It makes me nuts, especially with people who have clearly been around the block with this show. This is what they do! They set up what seems like some kind of betrayal to make conflict, the guys pull apart, all is revealed, they get closer again. This is the show! Of course, I could also say to myself, this is the fandom! Some people love and are over-invested in one character and don't like the other at all, which is frustrating when I just love Winchesters.

God forbid I enjoy the show but at a lesser level of involvement than I used to feel.

This is where I'm at, too. I considered not watching the show, but I can't quit it. There are things I wish I could change about this season, but none of those things have to do with Sam or Dean, really. I look forward to seeing how they resolve the current drama.

it isn't about who's right and who's wrong. Both boys have been very badly damaged/hurt by what happened, and they're each coping in their own way. They're both entitled to their feelings, and they're both right and wrong.

THIS, so very, very much. I'll be honest, I've given up on the fangirls who insist on hating/blaming one brother or another. Yup, the guys are going through rough waters this season. As you said above, they're BOTH right. And BOTH wrong. They need to work things out, is all. And I'm positive that they will.

*joins in with the agreement chorus on Ash48's awesome meta*

You're right in that all it takes is one negative comment to wreck any and all good feels you may get from a post, but . . . why let one idiot have such control? Ignore 'em and move on. And if, after they know your stance on certain subjects, they continue to act an idiot, defriend. And move on. Life's too short.

In short, I don't think I can post my thoughts without having to put in several thousand caveats first, and that is sucking the fun out of it.

Oh, no, bb . . . I hate that you feel this way. It's your journal and you can say whatever you damn well please. WITHOUT adding a bunch of caveats. Haters to the left. And personally, I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on the season, good, bad, or indifferent.

p.s. Feel free to drop in at my LJ anytime. Brother hate is not tolerated, and the idiot quotient of my flist is very, VERY low. :)

Edited 2012-11-13 05:12 (UTC)

Thank you! But since people helpfully brought the brother vs brother to the VERY post in which I said that reading such things upset me, I think I'm going to continue my policy of not posting or reading until Show has given us a bit more background on what happened to the boys.

My entries are public, and I attracted a fair number of people who read mostly for my fic. I'm not friends with all of them (I wouldn't have time to read all those entries, OMG), but it does mean anyone can comment at any time. So that means I'm wide open for wank on anything I post.

My entries are public

Oops. I didn't realize. (I restrict everything that's not art to friends, so I guess I've been leading a rather sheltered LJ life.) But I now get why you don't wish to post or read, and support your decision to do so. :)

I'm just sorry that things have gotten bad enough to bring you to this point. D: May things improve soon. I really would like to know your opinion on S8 . . . one day.

This season has been verrrrrry polarizing, hasn't it? And I'm actually loving the hell outta it. It's so chock-full of psychological goodies to ruminate over. But you'll notice (or perhaps not!) that I never discuss it in my own journal (for reasons all too familiar to you) and I don't ever read metas where I know the author will lean one direction or another.

Sometimes I'll stumble on a reply that lobs rocks and I can't resist playing devil's advocate, but mostly I ignore those sorts. I love my Show and my boys and I love hearing fellow fan's theories and guesses about what's going on. I love that we can all wallow in our ~~addiction~~ hobby together and share fic and art. That's my focus. The rest can suck it. :D

Yes to all of this. Although it helps that I barely have the time to read fics these days, let alone waste it on negative discussions. So I haven't come across too many of those. But as always with stuff like this, those with strong opinions one way or another will be louder than those with moderate views. And it's really sad when the moderate people start being too intimidated to express their opinion.
And I feel you about the lack of passion. I still love the show but it's become less addictive for me. Eg. I think a year ago the move to Wednesday would have bothered me more, because I sometimes can't watch the ep before the weekend. Maybe Show and I are becoming an old married couple...

ETA: Sorry about the double post, still getting used to that pocket sized computer pretending to be a phone :)

Edited 2012-11-13 19:16 (UTC)

I'm getting caught up a bit, and just saw this post. I completely understand your frustration, and consider myself lucky that my flist is largely of the bi-bro variety. I hope things get better soon or at least simmer down, as I have no interesting in blaming either/neither of the boys for their issues - they're both messed up to some degree.

I'm not as invested in Show as I've been at points in the past, but I'm not sure if it's because the show has changed or if it's because I'm up to my neck in schoolwork, and just don't have the time or energy to invest right now. I know I haven't been reading nearly as much fic or meta this season as I have in the past.

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Season 8 non-thoughts

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