ratherastory | Two extra thoughts about 5.17

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Two extra thoughts about 5.17

Back home, and I think LJ is letting me post again...

So why is it that when SAM wants to have a normal life and a family, it's wrong and selfish and hurtful to his family, but when DEAN wants it everyone goes "AAAAAAAWWWWW!"

Is it because Sam actually tried to get it for himself, whereas Dean is apparently willing to throw himself on the proverbial grenade? What?

The double-standard makes me sad.

:(

Also, I am SERIOUSLY ANNOYED by the Whore of Babylon thing. Come on, SPN. You can stop being so blatantly misogynistic any day now. :(

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The double-standards annoy me all the time. I mean, everyone is trying to make Sam the bad guy and blame him for everything and it annoys me to hell and makes me all protective of sweet nice Sammy.

Grr.

I *know* that Sam made mistakes, but I would really like it if there was a minimal effort to empathize with the boy. :(

It is colossally unfair! Dean ditched Sam when he SAID OUT LOUD that he needs Dean, and ran to a one night stand and told her she is the one? I am furiousn furious!

See, I don't mind the one-night-stand being "the one," thing. I really don't.

I just wish that what was good for the goose was good for the gander. If Dean gets to long for normal, why can't Sam?

Boo.

why? because Sam is not too chicken to do something to get whatever he wants; whereas Dean did not even dare to acknowledge this longing.

I really do not get it. Dean got Sam back to hunt, at least one, with a 'I could, but I do not want to.' and Sam is the selfish bastard?!

Man, I haven't work up to this degree of proper rage in years, years.

Part 1) OMG THANK YOU. *pets Sam*

Part 2) Are you serious? IT'S IN THE BIBLE. It's a MAJOR part of Revelation! You can't have the Apocalypse without her!! Boo.

No, I get she has to be there. I just wish they'd done something... more imaginative with her, is all

... such as? *head tilt*

Offhand? Not sure. I'd have to think about it. But they have a whole team of people to think up stuff like this. ;)

Well, I didn't think it was wrong and selfish of Sam to want his own life...that's a big part of who Sam was, once upon a time, and I'm actually kind of sad that he's gotten so used to the idea of never having that white picket fence.

But I think people are going "Aww" with Dean because a) apparently going "aww" is half the point of Dean these days ):< and b) yeah, also because he's not actually going to get it. (though I personally do kind of read it as desertion of Sam, if only because he mentioned special provisions for Lisa and Ben but not for his brother.)

I think the thing is that Sam actually expected to get his normal life. When he left home and went to college he thought he was set. Wife, career, home all would be his. And that's great, he should have had all that. But Dean DOESN'T expect to get the whole white picket fence thing. He expects to be burned to a crispy, mentally destroyed mess by an archangel during a fight with Lucifer. He wants it so badly, but he'll never have it. I think that's why the aww factor with Dean.

He expects to be burned to a crispy, mentally destroyed mess by an archangel
Except that Michael already promised him to give his body back fully intact instead of the vegetable mess the other archangels like Raphael seem to leave their no longer used vessels in.

Well, yes Michael did, but all the angels, even Cas who is trusted now,but who once kidnapped Dean and pressured him to torture Alastair and later let Sam out of the panic room, have shown that they will do or say ANYTHING to get Dean to say yes. Dean doesn't trust any angel except Cas any further than he can throw them. Michael may well be telling the truth but from everything we've seen of the angels so far I don't think Dean really believes that he'll be restored to himself when Michael's finished with him.

I personally love that Sam tried to get a normal life. It’s probably the only healthy thing anyone in his family has done, haha, and I don’t get the fans who think that he was wrong just because it hurt Dean’s feelings or whatever. I don’t even think Dean thinks he’s wrong – as he said in Scarecrow he’s actually proud of Sam for standing up to their dad like that – but at this point in the show, after s4 and what happened last week, he doesn’t think Sam loves him, the way he loves Sam, so entirely, and is doubting what all of Sam's choices have meant.

It’s obvious to me that Sam DOES love him that much, but I can see why it isn't to Dean. Uh, I’m obviously one of those AWWW, Dean people. Sorry! ;) I do really feel for them both.

More on topic, I think the idea of Dean wanting a family, or Sam wanting a family, for that matter, would be very different than it was earlier in the series, because there seems to be little hope of it ever happening now. So it's just more tragic than anything else.

I think I'm coming off as being unsympathetic to Dean, which is totally not the case.

I'm entirely on board with you when you say Sam's breaking away is the only healthy thing anyone in his family has done.

Oh, boys. They're BREAKING MY HEART.

Aw, I know you love Deano too! ;D

I just felt the need to ramble a bit on the subject. I've seen Sam!hate before, but I've actually come across a lot of Dean!hate after the last episode, which is making me sad. How do people hate either of them? This is like when I was in Veronica Mars fandom, and half the fandom hated Veronica. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I don't get it either.

I can't bring myself to hate either of them. Right now I am VERY ANGRY with Dean, but I'm sad and heartbroken for him too, poor bunny.

I WANT MY BOYS FIXED!

*weeps*

I'm not even angry at him. He really thinks he has nothing, but of course we know he has Sammyyy! I'm really hoping Sam will get to step up and save the day this time around, and it looks like it's heading in that direction.

Ugh, I want next week's episode NOW. I swear I'm more excited for it than I was for the season premiere.

I really hope so. Dean needs a break from saving the world all the time, and Sam needs to step up to the plate after all this time.

Next week had better take a step toward fixing things, even a tiny bit. I don't know if my heart can take this. :(

Seriously. I LIKE a bit of bleakness in books, TV, etc., but this has really gone on far enough. There needs to be bro!hugs, stat!

Kittens and puppies and DAFFODILS, I tell you!

I don’t even think Dean thinks he’s wrong – as he said in Scarecrow he’s actually proud of Sam for standing up to their dad like that.

THIS. Dean's just not having a good time right now and everything is getting under his skin, everything is going to make him feel insecure and unsure of himself. I'm trying not to worry though because he has Sam and Sam's learned a heck of a lot from what happened last season and I think he'll be able to use his mistakes to make this better. I HOPE.

I don't know if it was 'aawww' this time- I was feeling kind of annoyed at Dean. Any 'awww' in my book was just because of how TRAGIC and SAD it is that he LONGS FOR WHAT FATE WILL ALWAYS DENY HIM! (yes, i am being a bit tongue in cheek there).

I think it comes down to the way they've set up the conflict. They've pretty much always had sam's desire for a better life notably (as in, with giant anvils raining down) do not include his family...which I could have believed in early days, but now seems kind of off (the last episode in that regard left me feeling a little puzzled.) They've tended to tie Sam's desires to hubris, to his pride and ambition.

Whereas Dean...well, they've made it a bit more complicated, with his virtue being the loyalty to his family and his flaw being his codependency, to not being able to let go of his family. I'm sure that's the symmetry they were going for anyway.

The result is that (problematically) anything that involves Sam desiring 'normal life' or whatever is a sign of fault winning over virtue and anything involving Dean desiring those things represents virtue overcoming fault.

An odd and awkward set up for just the reasons you outline, but there you go.

The whore thing didn't bother me as much, it was just too over the top. I figured it was a...tease or at least an acknowledgment of the criticisms along those lines.

Is it because Sam actually tried to get it for himself, whereas Dean is apparently willing to throw himself on the proverbial grenade? What?

I don't know, but it irritates the heck out of me.

Also, I am SERIOUSLY ANNOYED by the Whore of Babylon thing. Come on, SPN. You can stop being so blatantly misogynistic any day now.

Is it misogyny if it actually exists in the Bible? The show didn't make that shit up. I can understand that they might by misogynistic in other cases, but I didn't get the complaints this time around. Folks get irritated when the show doesn't properly follow the apocalyptic stuff in Revelation (the whole anti-Christ child thing hit people wrong, if I recall correctly, and also the prophets in the SPN-'verse) and the get annoyed when SPN actually does follow Revelation.

I don't think they looked at stuff that's supposed to happen during the Apocalypse, saw 'Whore of Babylon', and said, oooo, let's kill a whore, woohoo!

I can understand the problem with "on a good day you get to kill a whore" though. That was just... in bad taste.

This is my own personal canon: I think it's a contrivance of the writers as much as anyone that Dean is the woobie, and Sam is the bad guy. (Not that I agree with that!) They both act like assholes sometimes, but I think a lot of fans feel protective of Dean because we saw, more than once, how Dean lost his childhood to the quest, while Sam had Dean to care for him and got to leave and go to college, and have a little bit of a life of his own, which Dean couldn't even contemplate until S3. And Dean's Issues with abandonment/loss are brought up and jumped up and down on (5x16!) more often, while we don't get inside Sam's head as often, if memory serves.

From the beginning, the story has been told largely from Dean's perspective on the world (the importance of "saving people, hunting things"), and I really think Dean believed Sam was being selfish by leaving to go to Stanford when there were people out there who needed saving. Part of that was likely the fact that he was as much Sam's parent as sibling, and by leaving, Sam was -in a way- betraying the ideals Dean believed in, and it's difficult for parents to accept choices made by their children that go against their values. So, since Dean is our POV character, that attitude bleeds over.

This is just my thinky thoughts on the subject. Feel free to disagree and tell me I'm wrong!

So why is it that when SAM wants to have a normal life and a family, it's wrong and selfish and hurtful to his family, but when DEAN wants it everyone goes "AAAAAAAWWWWW!"

Because Sam left 'the family business' to persue his dream. On a couple of occasions Dean has hinted that he'd like a family but has regularly put his own desires behind doing 'the right thing'. And I personally think that Sam was perfectly within his rights to want to go to university. From the few hints the show has given us, he didn't intend to leave completely but John told him not to come back.

Religion IS misogynistic. The Bible is full of it, we are dealing with old time religion...so I didn't get myself up in arms over it.

Sam's back story is tragic in that he finally HAD normal and lost it forever. He fought,did whatever it took, thought of himself vs his actions. Not necessarily a bad thing. He did what he had to to get his "normal". Ok.. got that.. accept it. You do what you think you must to get away from darkness.

Dean's story is tragic now because after drinking the "kool aid" of John W. since he was 4.. he has finally realized he TOO could have had normal. He didn't HAVE to blindly obey and sacrifice his happiness. There's the "awww" factor. Now that's it's too late.. he realized who and what kind of normal he could have had.

Any "bad" feelings some have towardSam is the thought that he still hasn't "apologized" for trusting Ruby over Dean. The crux of the hurt and bad feelings Dean has toward Sam. And some see his plea to not do this to ME as STILL seeing things as revolving around himself. I don't think anyone believes Dean will come out of being Michael's vessel perfectly fine.. including Dean. We know Sam is doomed if he says yes and we know he DOES need Dean to help. But he's not letting Dean know he, Sam will be there for HIM (Dean) to help HIM to just say no.

It's well and good to say we can do this together, but right now Dean needs to hear Sam say I will be there for you.. I will support you, I will help YOU. Dean will say yes because he feels he's totally alone and there's no hope.

Now this week we may hear Sam express himself better. Because we ALL know he DOES want to be there for Dean, he DOES care what Dean feels.

My little shot at explaining (probably badly) how all sides are righteous in their beliefs... and neither really matters as this is Kripke's story and he'll tell it like he wants.

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Two extra thoughts about 5.17

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